Comments on: Service: Is It Really About Serving http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/ Live the GREAT life you desire! Tue, 01 May 2012 16:09:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: DaveOlson http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2191 DaveOlson Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:03:31 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2191 Alex, there comes a point in many discussions when we must admit that we are not moving closer to agreement. I think this is it. :lol: Loved it but I don't know that I have anything more constructive to add. I think we are mostly separated on semantics but that's okay. You've taken me back to college dorm room discussions and I've loved it. Thanks Alex. Alex, there comes a point in many discussions when we must admit that we are not moving closer to agreement. I think this is it. :lol: Loved it but I don’t know that I have anything more constructive to add. I think we are mostly separated on semantics but that’s okay. You’ve taken me back to college dorm room discussions and I’ve loved it. Thanks Alex.

]]> By: Alex Shalman http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2190 Alex Shalman Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:16:22 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2190 Instinct is a funny thing. It's actually a learned behavior as well, for the most part. One person's instinct could be to push the child out of the way, and get hit by a moving car. This appears like a very brave act. One person's instinct might be to hide behind another's, when there is a gun being pointed in the room. At first glance it seems cowardly. There are many different representations of what appears to be. However, everything we do is because we are aligned with doing that action. Even when we feel like we have to, and we are pleasing someone else, it serves us better to do it than to disappoint another. Going back to what you said, premeditation isn't a necessary condition of my theory. Even split second instinctual/blink decisions are done in the name of self-approval. Instinct is a funny thing. It’s actually a learned behavior as well, for the most part.

One person’s instinct could be to push the child out of the way, and get hit by a moving car.
This appears like a very brave act.

One person’s instinct might be to hide behind another’s, when there is a gun being pointed in the room. At first glance it seems cowardly.

There are many different representations of what appears to be. However, everything we do is because we are aligned with doing that action. Even when we feel like we have to, and we are pleasing someone else, it serves us better to do it than to disappoint another.

Going back to what you said, premeditation isn’t a necessary condition of my theory. Even split second instinctual/blink decisions are done in the name of self-approval.

]]> By: DaveOlson http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2189 DaveOlson Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:58:15 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2189 Alex, I think the reaction would have been instinctive rather than premeditated. If she hadn't made the decision, you're right, she would have regretted it. But the simple fact that she made the split-second decision ("blink") indicates to me something other than self-approval. Love the discussion by the way. Brain is working overtime... :-) Alex, I think the reaction would have been instinctive rather than premeditated. If she hadn’t made the decision, you’re right, she would have regretted it. But the simple fact that she made the split-second decision (“blink”) indicates to me something other than self-approval.

Love the discussion by the way. Brain is working overtime… :-)

]]> By: Alex Shalman http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2182 Alex Shalman Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:24:33 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2182 Liz, I was thinking more about what you said about suicide and self-preservation. Self-approval isn't exactly self preservation. The fact that suicide could be such a selfish act, leaving family members and loved ones in pain due to this death, is a point towards self-approval. You didn't care about the family, you sacrificed them, to get rid of your own pain and trauma via suicide. Liz,

I was thinking more about what you said about suicide and self-preservation. Self-approval isn’t exactly self preservation. The fact that suicide could be such a selfish act, leaving family members and loved ones in pain due to this death, is a point towards self-approval. You didn’t care about the family, you sacrificed them, to get rid of your own pain and trauma via suicide.

]]> By: Alex Shalman http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2181 Alex Shalman Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:17:17 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2181 Dave, This mother that you speak of. If she had allowed her child to die, when there was anything she could give (including her own life) to save her child, she wouldn't be able to live with herself. She wouldn't "approve" of such a decision. Dave,

This mother that you speak of. If she had allowed her child to die, when there was anything she could give (including her own life) to save her child, she wouldn’t be able to live with herself. She wouldn’t “approve” of such a decision.

]]> By: DaveOlson http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2180 DaveOlson Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:22:34 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2180 It probably is mostly semantics, however the validity of self-approval being the case one hundred percent of the time is problematic for me. Do we not allow the possibility that self-less service does in fact happen? Is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism">altruism</a> non-existant? If self-approval answers every condition then what about the mother who on instinct chooses the life of her child over her own. Not enough time for self-approval. Alex and Liz... thanks for pursuing this discussion. It helps to stretch my brain. :grin: It probably is mostly semantics, however the validity of self-approval being the case one hundred percent of the time is problematic for me.

Do we not allow the possibility that self-less service does in fact happen? Is altruism non-existant?

If self-approval answers every condition then what about the mother who on instinct chooses the life of her child over her own. Not enough time for self-approval.

Alex and Liz… thanks for pursuing this discussion. It helps to stretch my brain. :grin:

]]> By: Alex Shalman http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2179 Alex Shalman Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:08:03 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2179 Thanks for jumping in the conversation Liz. I agree with you 99%. You say that suicide isn't really an option. However, it's a fact that suicide does exist. The reason why people commit suicide is because they disapprove of their life, an event in their life, or the future of their life, in such a way that ending their life is more appealing. They actually approve of death, over life. Could they be coached into a different direction, away from suicide? Yes, I believe so. Suicide is not a great option. Thanks for jumping in the conversation Liz.

I agree with you 99%. You say that suicide isn’t really an option. However, it’s a fact that suicide does exist. The reason why people commit suicide is because they disapprove of their life, an event in their life, or the future of their life, in such a way that ending their life is more appealing. They actually approve of death, over life. Could they be coached into a different direction, away from suicide? Yes, I believe so. Suicide is not a great option.

]]> By: Liz Strauss http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2177 Liz Strauss Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:32:03 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2177 Hi Dave and Alex, Sounds like a problem of semantics. I've actually agreed with Alex through this whole discussion. The idea in my head has been one of self-preservation. Theologists and ethicists often argue, far better than I might, whether it's possible tor a human to be totally selfless . . . but I believe that we're imbued with an instinct to live -- put on Earth to know, love, and serve God and each other. That's part of why suicide isn't really an option. Choosing to serve is choosing to find how service can be a good thing for others and ourselves. We do serve because it makes us feel good, feel like we contributed, feel something . . . were there absolutely no payoff for serving . . . if we saw absolutely no benefit that we personally valued, we would not do it. Or to say it another way, if we thought serving was valueless or wrong, we wouldn't serve. So we must get something from it. Hi Dave and Alex,
Sounds like a problem of semantics.

I’ve actually agreed with Alex through this whole discussion. The idea in my head has been one of self-preservation. Theologists and ethicists often argue, far better than I might, whether it’s possible tor a human to be totally selfless . . . but I believe that we’re imbued with an instinct to live — put on Earth to know, love, and serve God and each other. That’s part of why suicide isn’t really an option.

Choosing to serve is choosing to find how service can be a good thing for others and ourselves. We do serve because it makes us feel good, feel like we contributed, feel something . . . were there absolutely no payoff for serving . . . if we saw absolutely no benefit that we personally valued, we would not do it.

Or to say it another way, if we thought serving was valueless or wrong, we wouldn’t serve. So we must get something from it.

]]> By: DaveOlson http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2175 DaveOlson Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:40:20 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2175 I'm trying to figure out how you reconcile the idea of selfless service with the concept of ultimate self-approval. Basically if it doesn't do something for you (feel good, material, whatever) then you don't do it. I think that's essentially faulty although I think I know what your trying to say. If you mean that ultimately <strong>we</strong> make a decision to serve as opposed to some outside force making us serve, then yes I agree with the idea of self-approval. Otherwise, I'm still wrestling with it. :smile: I’m trying to figure out how you reconcile the idea of selfless service with the concept of ultimate self-approval. Basically if it doesn’t do something for you (feel good, material, whatever) then you don’t do it. I think that’s essentially faulty although I think I know what your trying to say.

If you mean that ultimately we make a decision to serve as opposed to some outside force making us serve, then yes I agree with the idea of self-approval. Otherwise, I’m still wrestling with it. :smile:

]]> By: Alex Shalman http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/comment-page-1/#comment-2174 Alex Shalman Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:06:21 +0000 http://daveolson.ca/2007/10/28/what-do-i-get-out-of-serving/#comment-2174 I could be wrong, I often am, but I don't think this self-approval that I speak of is time sensitive. For example, you could give up your last 5 bucks to a homeless many and have to walk 10 miles home, because that was your train money. You get the instant self approval of helping someone, and you not only endure the hassle of walking afterwards, but you do it happily. Or, you can first get through the boot camp happily, because you know of future pay off. Or you can drag your feet through boot camp because you know you will disappoint family if you don't, which also means you will not have your own self-approval. It still comes down to doing for your self-approval. What do you think? I could be wrong, I often am, but I don’t think this self-approval that I speak of is time sensitive.
For example, you could give up your last 5 bucks to a homeless many and have to walk 10 miles home, because that was your train money. You get the instant self approval of helping someone, and you not only endure the hassle of walking afterwards, but you do it happily.

Or, you can first get through the boot camp happily, because you know of future pay off. Or you can drag your feet through boot camp because you know you will disappoint family if you don’t, which also means you will not have your own self-approval.

It still comes down to doing for your self-approval.

What do you think?

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